When watching tango, one is often struck by the elegance of the dance,
> and one imagines that tango dancers might constitute a separate
> universe of people. People of gentle manners and refined behaviors.
>
> And then one joins Tango-L, and is rudely awakened -- by posts like
> the one above -- to the fact that many tango dancers are actually
> people of extraordinary rudeness and coarseness.
>
> I belong to a number of Internet communities, many of which -- such as
> financial communities and political communities -- revolve around
> topics where bickering, name calling, and personal attacks are to be
> expected. But on none of them do I see the level of pettiness and
> mean-spiritedness that I see on this ListServe on such a regular
> basis.
>
> Just a personal observation.
>
> Rick Jones
> Washington DC

Posted by: Candice White at December 15, 2004 11:11 AM

Interesting....but not really. I was sent to your web-site because some very dear friends of mine were upset by your comments about 2 tango teachers....also very good friends.

It's sad that someone with your obvious talent as a wordsmith could be so cruel. It appears that you have had too many enemas and that is why you spew such venom. And then I am reminded once again about the origin of Tango, and am sending you some info.....I'm sure you can relate.

Posted by: Candice White at December 15, 2004 11:12 AM

You really shouldn't be surprised. Tango brings the innermost feelings to the surface. How you deal with life affects how you dance. How you act off the dance floor is how you dance on the floor. If little things upset you off the dance floor, this person is going to get upset when something goes wrong on the dance floor. If you have no confidence off the floor, you're convinced that every mistake that happens on the floor is your fault. I've danced with a lot of women who are convinced every error was their fault when the truth is most of the time my lead was off for some reason, e.g. not enough rotation in shoulders, my right arm went loose and she drifted away, etc. (I've learned the very hard way that a woman cannot follow what a man cannot lead.) However, it was their fault if they were so stiff they blocked themselves from moving. Some people have a need to be right, at all costs. At all costs means an attack on a position contrary to their own. I belonged to a New York City transit discussion board. The fighting got so bad (accusations of racism, threats of physical violence), the website owner shut down the boards (one for subway and the other for busses).

Then we have the issue of egos. Some people have egos so large they should pay double the admission fee at milongas. These are the people who think, that for $10, they bought the dance floor and don't have to pay attention to others. They are notorious for ignoring traffic patterns and sometimes, even their partners. These leaders look like snowplows and these followers look like runaway tops spinning out of control on the floor with high boleos.

Tango is a very passionate dance which brings passion to the surface. Some can control their passion, while others can't.

Posted by: Candice White at December 15, 2004 11:13 AM

candice---

A couple of things. First, this website was conceived as a highly opinionated and colorful view of my dance-related adventures in DFW and beyond. And that's precisely what it is and will remain. I'm not sure why you refer to my comments as "cruel" ("crass" I could understand; "cruel," to my mind, would involve making fun of someone for mental, physical or other conditions beyond their control, or intentionally attempting to inflict emotional pain, or the like) but, like me, you are entitled to your opinion and I'm happy to publish that opinion alongside my own. The same goes for anyone who happens upon this site--including the instructors I have mentioned above.

At this point in time pseudoLatino.com is a personal site, available to anyone with internet access but not "published" in the sense that I don't go around promoting it. I use it to keep my friends up to date regarding my activities, and to evaluate--for myself and others--the various things I encounter: venues, events, dance-styles, communities, and, obviously, instructors. In the above post I have done precisely what a restaurant critic does when he goes to a new restaurant: I have sampled the wares (repeatedly) and given my readers an assessment of those wares in the style to which they are accustomed and in which I prefer to write. This style is often vulgar, definitely off-color, and assuredly aggressive.

This will come as no surprise to anyone who has given the site even a cursory examination.

Like a restaurant critic, I do not and have not confused the thing I am evaluating (instruction, event, public commentary) with the person creating that artifact (the instructor, presenter, speaker--though this last is more difficult and often need NOT be kept distinct). I have been clear that Jeramy (for instance) has been extremely nice and charming as an individual, while at the same time recommending (strongly) that beginners don't take his classes. I stand by that recommendation. Whether I like Jeramy or not is irrelevant to my evaluation, and is also--if I intend to be consistent (and I do)--irrelevant to the style in which that recommendation is made.

Unlike most critics, I use strong language and images to express my views. When it comes to the written word, I like strong language and views and--as I'm not writing for any official publication with a need to feign impassivity or lack of bias--that's perfectly reasonable. It's a stylistic choice that the reader is free to accept, or to avoid like the plague.

The events referenced on this site (stretching all the way back to late July, when I first began dancing) transpired at various public events and involved individuals acting in their public capacities as instructors, presenters, etc. I have neither taken them out of context nor, to the best of my abilities, misrepresented them. When one makes public comments or takes public actions in an official capacity, one must be prepared for criticism as well as praise. I have made semi-public comments on this site . . . and so I should and do expect criticisms such as yours.

It as at precisely this point where things always get interesting; how will they unfold? I am always open to dialogue, to communication, to growth and change. My opinions, though unambiguous and strong, are not immutable. Whenever someone comes at me with the usual accusations of "venom" and "vitriol" and "cruel," "mean-spirited" and the like, I always wonder: are THEIRS mutable? Is discourse only possible for them when it's accomplished according to THEIR rules of etiquette? I can only wait patiently to see how it turns out.

For my part, I come to the DFW Tango scene with a strong predisposition to love the dance. I also come to the scene with a great deal of energy and passion and an expectation of being met with the same. With some folks that has happened, with others--absolutely not. When it comes to Tango I can't yet dance my way out of a paper bag, but I will. And I would like more than an embarrassingly tiny handful of my fellow citizens to be out there doing the same.

---jim (aka the PseudoLatino)

Posted by: Pseudo-Latino at December 15, 2004 01:28 PM

Jim,

George and I are very disappointed in the comments we have found on your website.
Tango is much more than just a dance to us. Tango is a community where we have friends and family. Therefore, when we saw the comments about our friends and people we respect, we took it on a personal level. It is very important to us that this community is shown respect. We may be pre-judging you based on this website, but we believe you are pre-judging our friends and the community based on limited interactions.

On a personal and professional level, our students are very important to us. It is also important to us that they show respect to others in the community. It does not mean that you have to like them, but at least don't disrespect them.
We would like to believe that our students are a reflection of us. Because of this, we do not want to be associated with this type of negative rhetoric.

We would be happy to refund the money that you gave us for the privates. Please send me your address and I will be putting it in the mail today.

If you are thinking about coming to the class tonight, I would not suggest it. People within the community are very upset and hurt by your website.

We wish you the best of luck,
Jairelbhi & George

Posted by: Jairelbhi & George at December 15, 2004 04:38 PM

>>>George and I are very disappointed in the comments we have found on your website.

Clearly the entire community is disappointed--or, to be a bit less mamby-pamby about it, outraged. That's fine. I understand it even. The community could use a little more outrage, as outrage requires passion--a topic on which I have presented my thoughts elsewhere. That the community's response to outspoken dissent and criticism is to circle the wagons and black-ball the dissenter, however, is unwarranted and telling. For that reason, I am disappointed in you, too. Not just you--George and Jairelbhi--but you, the entire community. If this group is truly so tiny and so fragile that one newcomer's comments can get everyone soooo up in arms and flustered, perhaps you should all ask yourselves "why is that the case?" That's the question I have asked, and in response to which I have presented various opinions on this (my personal, non-published) site. If my insignificant blog can be such BIG NEWS™ on the scene, then there is a bigger problem here than one "bad" person's bad attitude.

>>>Tango is much more than just a dance to us. Tango is a community where we have friends and family. Therefore, when we saw the comments about our friends and people we respect, we took it on a personal level.

The comments I have made about your friends were of two kinds: evaluations of services they provide--which I believe are terrible, and personal responses to comments that those friends of yours made in public, before an assembled group of dancers (some new and some established), in their official capacities as representatives of the DFW Tango community (as DJ and Host of the First Sunday Milonga, to be specific)--which I believe were embarrassing and inexcusable. Has all of this escaped you in your mad rush to Defend The Innocent? Is there room in all of this to actually evaluate the content of my comments, or does it simply fall along the tired old lines of who likes/knows whom and who used the insensitive, naughty words? The instructors I've questioned are "in," I'm "new" and clearly a jerk, so I'm "out." Shouldn't it matter whether or not I have raised any valid complaints? Is the content irrelevant just because I have wrapped it in a few off-color phrases which don't meet with everyone's approval? Do you really find it of no consequence that one of your friends slammed the entire Salsa community in front of relatively unknown outsiders (of which I was but one)? Or, since he is an insider, is that ok? You KNOW him; I'm a new guy. Ergo, I'm wrong. Right? And so it goes. That you (George and Jairelbhi) have taken any of this personally is a mistake on your part, not a reflection on the quality or the veracity (or lack thereof) of my comments. It is not always the case in life that all of the people we like, like one another, nor that the people we respect, respect one another. Not even within our own families is such a thing guaranteed. To take these things personally is completely unjustified.

>>>It is very important to us that this community is shown respect.

For me, respect is something which begins as an unearned courtesy extended to a stranger until or unless there is a reason to withdraw that respect. Beyond this initial courtesy, deep and lasting respect must be earned. You and George have earned my lasting respect as teachers, as dancers, and as human beings. Others have taken actions which caused me to withdraw the initial courtesy-driven respect I had extended them, at least in certain areas. I can't oblige you or anyone else who demands that I show respect "just because." It's an unreasonable demand for you to make. Civility and common public courtesy? Yes. Respect? No. I can't feign respect any more than I can feign love.

>>>We may be pre-judging you based on this website, but we believe you are pre-judging our friends and the community based on limited interactions.

But I'm not. You say "limited interactions." If I didn't know you better, I'd assume that was meant as a joke. How much perseverance do you expect from an outsider before he can make an informed assessment? In the 25 days since I decided to investigate my first Milonga (November 20th), I have attended 6 official Milongas and 9 private or group lessons. That's 2 Milongas and 3 lessons each week. In addition, I have taken the personal initiative to organize 2 practice sessions for myself and some of the other beginners--one of which took place this very afternoon. That's about 5 events each week, at an average of 2 hours per event. I'm a reasonably bright guy, and it doesn't take me more than 30 hours of intense involvement to make an informed, reasonable, and fair assessment of anything. Those are NOT "limited" interactions, and--please pay close attention here, because I believe this is a VERY important point--this is about 28 or 29 hours MORE than most newcomers are going to give you and your community. They'll sit through one, maybe two group lessons and then decide once and for all: "yes" or "no." We want them to decide "yes!" and you both know that is not happening as often as it needs to happen. I'm willing to wager that everyone who has worked with or danced with me thus far will tell you that I am very enthusiastic about this dance AND this community. They will have the impression that I WANT this community to do well; that I WANT you to succeed; that I WANT to learn and I'm willing to put in the hours and effort to make all those things happen (although they may now call me lots of names when they admit it, the point remains intact). My judgments are based on direct, extended exposure, and on my hopes and desires for this community and, obviously, on my own private motivations. They aren't based upon what is politically, personally, or professionally expedient. Generally, that's considered a GOOD thing.

>>>On a personal and professional level, our students are very important to us.

This is profoundly obvious to anyone who has ever had the pleasure of working with you.

>>>It is also important to us that they show respect to others in the community. It does not mean that you have to like them, but at least don't disrespect them.

In the issue at hand, this is a double standard. I should respect others, even when they themselves are disrespectful? By insulting other communities, or my intelligence, or what have you, they can disrespect whomever and whatever as they see fit, but if I point out that they have done so, that's NOT ok? No. You are implicitly saying that the "in" folks can do what they want, but the "out" folks can't . . . at least not until they're "in." Respect, as I have said, is extended as a courtesy until it is either earned or called into question. I extended that respect to these individuals and still do, on some levels. Do I extend it to them as instructors and representatives of Tango--the music, the dance and the community? No. Sorry. I can't do it.

>>> We would like to believe that our students are a reflection of us. Because of this, we do not want to be associated with this type of negative rhetoric.

I believe this is a very naive position. Your students are a reflection of you only when they are on the dancefloor, and really not even then. Their style, their technique, their dancefloor manners may reflect on you somewhat, but are radically colored by each student's own innate talents, limitations, and ideas. Who they are off the dancefloor has nothing to do with you whatsoever. The personal opinions of your students do not reflect upon you at all. No matter what conventions we may be placing on top of this, I am a customer who is paying you for your services, and everyone knows it. If you want to refuse me service based merely upon my opinions--or my way of stating them, that's admittedly your prerogative. But don't be disingenuous and blame that refusal on fear of guilt by association. The Tango community, whatever its faults may be, isn't so mentally challenged that it can't disentangle my personal rantings from the attitudes of two people they know well and whom they presume to be kind and tolerant to a fault.

>>>If you are thinking about coming to the class tonight, I would not suggest it. People within the community are very upset and hurt by your website.

I have followed your suggestion for now although I believe it is a bad suggestion, a suggestion based on the premise that the people in your community are incapable of handling dissent and conflict. As an outspoken critic of that community, even I disagree with this premise. I know for a fact that I am not that fragile. Being upset is not always a bad thing. Evolution and growth don't happen without conflict, and this community needs to grow and evolve. If the community refuses to let me be a part of that growth, I will be saddened, but life goes on.

>>>We wish you the best of luck,

And I you.

Posted by: Pseudo-Latino at December 16, 2004 01:31 AM

The last few posts, and accompanying comments have been an interesting twist to the PL’s dancing experience / blog. I find it hard to believe that a community of ADULTS, can behave in such an adolescent manner as to try to black-ball a person who has made a critique of some of the members of the community. But, then again, there are those who are just thin skinned. It’s a sad sign of our society in general that Americans have become so sensitive that a little criticism is treated with such shock and outrage. If anyone involved in the Tango community has read earlier than the last few posts of the Pseudo-Latino’s blog, they would know that he is an equal opportunity critic, and seldom in a genteel manner. That’s the fun of the blog. At least he has the courage to say out loud that the emperor has no clothes. From what I understand, some of you have recognized this for a while, but are just too “genteel” to say or do anything to help the Tango community.

I know Jim well enough to know how much passion he brings with him in any venture he chooses to undertake. In refusing to teach him, you (George and Jairelbhi) are doing yourselves a great disservice as dance instructors. This is a man who has learned to Salsa quite well (in my opinion), and has done so in less than 4 months. He was beginning to approach Tango with the same fervor. As far as your students representing you, what greater representation of your skill as instructors can you have than to have a student show such accomplishment in a short time?

As he has already pointed out, his opinions are his own and his personal actions are not a reflection of you. I think it is a rather adolescent reaction on your part to distance yourself from someone who has said something controversial about a member of your community. Controversy sparks change. The Dallas Tango community could probably use a little change, because it sounds rather dull (though I do know that Jim considers G & J to be two of the bright spots, who show a passion for the dance that makes it so appealing). But, as in all things, inertia is a very strong force, and it’s so much easier to claim that things are fine the way they are, thus avoiding any of the effort needed to make any improvements in the community.

Luna

Posted by: Luna at December 16, 2004 03:30 PM

Jim,
Due to your publicly expressed aggresive comments directed to specific members of the DFW tango community on this website, I am forced to inform you that your presence will not be allowed in any of the future Club de Tango of the Centro Argentino of DFW activities. As president of this club I am responsible for the safety of all participants of its activities and we have zero tolerance for violence, threats, or wishes to inflict harm.
Signed: Daniel Ferrari 12/19/2004

Posted by: Daniel Ferrari at December 19, 2004 05:40 PM

daniel---

Up until now, I've been responding without my usual sense of humor to comments in this thread. Reading your Proclamation, though, made that posture too difficult to maintain. I have responded to you fully at the top level of this site, here.

---jim

Posted by: Pseudo-Latino at December 20, 2004 11:53 AM